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  • Couronne Revisited?

    I've looked back through a half-dozen pages of the forum to see whether this has already been brought up and I didn't find anything, so here it goes. If there was a prior discussion, my apologies in advance.
    The Couronne Galleon is an interesting ship in-game; it barely matches the Poseidon in armament, it has the handling of a Wendon but without the speed, it costs over twice what a Poseidon costs to manufacture, and it's only redeeming attribute is it's hull, which is admittedly quite strong. It would be an alluring choice as a light lineship for freetraders but for the price. To quote the PotBS wiki,
    "Because of her colossal size and poor armament, she is outclassed by similar ships like the San Fernando which can use the more effective huge fittings, and the Centurion which has sufficient gun poundage... This is the heaviest ship available to Freetraders only, her broadside being roughly equal to a fourth rate and armor to match. She will do very poorly in a heavy line fighting group in a Port Battle, and will be easily outmaneuvered in PvP battles or a brawl."
    What really interests me about this case is that the PotBS Couronne is actually significantly outgunned by the historical ship: the main gundeck in-game has 22 guns compared to the 32 of the original La Couronne and the upper deck has 22 instead of the canonical 24. There are even sources that claim there were up to 12 stern chasers, though all sources are not unanimous on this count, some claiming 8 instead. This model ( http://www.quirao.com/en/p/scale-dis...ne-068778.htm# ) is created from the original plan of the ship and clearly shows 16 cannons to a broadside on the main gundeck of the ship.
    For the purposes of game balance and historical accuracy, is it possible to redo the Couronne to make it competitive again?
    Last edited by MorimotoMusashi; 07-16-2013, 02:00 PM. Reason: Correction

  • #2
    Not a single word on ship revison from devs. Atm...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Storm Hunter View Post
      Not a single word on ship revison from devs. Atm...
      I guess this was more of a pointed question on my part- I want to get into ship modeling and I feel that the Couronne is a good place to start: it's got lots of existing models to look at, the deckplans are free, and (I think) it's needed by the game. Do you think that the ship would get the revision if the revised model was available?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MorimotoMusashi View Post
        I guess this was more of a pointed question on my part- I want to get into ship modeling and I feel that the Couronne is a good place to start: it's got lots of existing models to look at, the deckplans are free, and (I think) it's needed by the game. Do you think that the ship would get the revision if the revised model was available?
        Not anytime in the foreseeable future. The current dev team has said on many occasions that it will be a long time before they will be able to add any new or revised ship models to the game.

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        • #5
          From everything I have read it is because they are having to adapt a new system to input and revise ships since Sony either took theirs with them or left a bad program behind. They are working hard just to clean up the old programming just so they can start on new content in-game. I always loved the Couronne, so I hope it does get buffed to what it was in the past also. It is a killer ship for a FT

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MorimotoMusashi View Post
            PotBS Couronne is actually significantly outgunned by the historical ship: the main gundeck in-game has 22 guns compared to the 32 of the original La Couronne and the upper deck has 22 instead of the canonical 24.
            You are correct on that account. Another source supporting that is Wikipedia: French Ship Couronne. This is undisputed and was mentioned by the old builder as well. I haven't looked at her in quite a while, but I believe the model was shaped with the original gun layout in mind and the gun count was later downbalanced. That is nothing too uncommon for PotBS ships - I doubt there is more than two handful of ships that have retained their original gun count and throw weight.

            Originally posted by MorimotoMusashi View Post
            For the purposes of game balance and historical accuracy, is it possible to redo the Couronne to make it competitive again?
            Originally posted by MorimotoMusashi View Post
            I guess this was more of a pointed question on my part- I want to get into ship modeling and I feel that the Couronne is a good place to start[...]
            I guess LiMuBei would be pretty *****d about you wanting to throw away his creation after he put hundreds of man-hours of both work and research on historical accurateness into that beast

            On a more serious note: Unless you have good expertise in general 3d modelling already I'd strongly advise you to start out small. A boat would be a good start, and then maybe a sloop or a small frigate. This thread offers a few "pre-approved" plans (not that it would matter a lot) for your inspiration.

            Also, I'd doubt that Portalus will be able to include new ships in the forseeable future, like Alcondaras said. Nothing to say about a good round of balancing, though this is the wrong forum for that kind of discussion.

            Of course you are free to model whatever you like, but I wouldn't bet a single dubloon that it'd ever make it into PotBS.

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            • #7
              I'm not sure that model can be accurate...

              The gundeck cannon are positioned extremely close together, the guncrews would be tripping over each other to reload. Perhaps the count of 32 cannon includes the 8 sternchasers.

              Couronne is also relatively small, her waterline and gundeck length for example is less than my model of the Shannon frigate which carries 28 18lbers, and less than the Centurion which carries 26 cannon on the gundeck.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dpi209 View Post
                You are correct on that account. Another source supporting that is Wikipedia: French Ship Couronne. This is undisputed and was mentioned by the old builder as well. I haven't looked at her in quite a while, but I believe the model was shaped with the original gun layout in mind and the gun count was later downbalanced. That is nothing too uncommon for PotBS ships - I doubt there is more than two handful of ships that have retained their original gun count and throw weight.
                I haven't made a survey of this or anything, but my general observation has been that most of the frigates in the game were up-gunned from their historical counterparts, and this one stuck out to me because it was very harshly under-gunned. Balance-wise, I think that the ship's cost is enough to counter that on its own, especially if some of the more aggressive suggestions in the test feedback forums (like perma-flagging haulers or nerfing their OS speed) go through. That's just me, though- there's a lot going on right now and I'm waiting until development is more stable to see what it looks like.

                Originally posted by dpi209 View Post
                I guess LiMuBei would be pretty *****d about you wanting to throw away his creation after he put hundreds of man-hours of both work and research on historical accurateness into that beast

                On a more serious note: Unless you have good expertise in general 3d modelling already I'd strongly advise you to start out small. A boat would be a good start, and then maybe a sloop or a small frigate. This thread offers a few "pre-approved" plans (not that it would matter a lot) for your inspiration.

                Also, I'd doubt that Portalus will be able to include new ships in the forseeable future, like Alcondaras said. Nothing to say about a good round of balancing, though this is the wrong forum for that kind of discussion.

                Of course you are free to model whatever you like, but I wouldn't bet a single dubloon that it'd ever make it into PotBS.
                I actually didn't know that it was a user-created ship until yesterday. :P I'd be a lot more wary of replacing it.
                I know a bit about modeling, mostly in Wings- I just wanted to do something that would actually be useful; the little ships already look nice for the most part, it's the upper-level ones that don't have unique models.
                Yeah, I think waiting until development slows down is best... At least the sloops definitely need different models; I can work on that in the meantime.

                Originally posted by M.Payne View Post
                I'm not sure that model can be accurate...

                The gundeck cannon are positioned extremely close together, the guncrews would be tripping over each other to reload. Perhaps the count of 32 cannon includes the 8 sternchasers.

                Couronne is also relatively small, her waterline and gundeck length for example is less than my model of the Shannon frigate which carries 28 18lbers, and less than the Centurion which carries 26 cannon on the gundeck.
                I don't know exactly how it worked in that regard, though French warships of that time were significantly broader than their English contemporaries- that may contribute to the sense of cramping when looking at it from the side. Even if the chasers are included, that only accounts for 4 of the 10 missing guns; they were spread over two decks.

                [edit] This ship plan gives a clearer view of the dimensions. It seems that the stern chasers are counted among the batteries but the prow chasers are not, which still leaves the in-game Couronne at a disparity with the historical one, being down 6 18 lbers and up 2 12 lbers (using the calibers from PotBS).
                Last edited by MorimotoMusashi; 07-18-2013, 09:50 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MorimotoMusashi View Post
                  I haven't made a survey of this or anything, but my general observation has been that most of the frigates in the game were up-gunned from their historical counterparts, and this one stuck out to me because it was very harshly under-gunned. Balance-wise, I think that the ship's cost is enough to counter that on its own, especially if some of the more aggressive suggestions in the test feedback forums (like perma-flagging haulers or nerfing their OS speed) go through. That's just me, though- there's a lot going on right now and I'm waiting until development is more stable to see what it looks like.
                  Sorry, I originally meant that most ships received changes to their loadout; quite a few gun sizes didn't even exist back in those days. If I recall correctly, La Couronne was downgunned because she was intended to fill a tradeship roll instead of the original warship one. For this she received a huge cargo capacity instead, which is by no means historically accurate but a balancing measure.

                  Shipwright Discussion is actually more about making pretty models than about ship balancing, though (or at least used to be) - it is not the fault of the model if ships receive a different throw weight out of balancing reasons, please keep that in mind. I guess the Dev Suggestion Box would be the appropriate forum for balancing issues.

                  Originally posted by MorimotoMusashi View Post
                  I actually didn't know that it was a user-created ship until yesterday. :P I'd be a lot more wary of replacing it.
                  I know a bit about modeling, mostly in Wings- I just wanted to do something that would actually be useful; the little ships already look nice for the most part, it's the upper-level ones that don't have unique models.
                  Yeah, I think waiting until development slows down is best... At least the sloops definitely need different models; I can work on that in the meantime.
                  If you really want a "bigger" ship to make it a useful addition, what about a 30-46 gun frigate? There's quite a few ships with duplicate models in that range. You could look for an appropriate one in either the thread I mentioned earlier or somewhere in the sources from Plans, Books & Resources.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What I see will happen is a new ship using Courone model will be added, with bronze cannons and better stats. This is how they devided all ships:

                    -Retired ships ( all from 2.10+ nerfed)
                    -Rates
                    -Bronze ships ( all boats with better stats that involve long time griding or real cash spending)
                    -Refits??? Abandoned not in work yet...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dpi209 View Post
                      Sorry, I originally meant that most ships received changes to their loadout; quite a few gun sizes didn't even exist back in those days. If I recall correctly, La Couronne was downgunned because she was intended to fill a tradeship roll instead of the original warship one. For this she received a huge cargo capacity instead, which is by no means historically accurate but a balancing measure.

                      Shipwright Discussion is actually more about making pretty models than about ship balancing, though (or at least used to be) - it is not the fault of the model if ships receive a different throw weight out of balancing reasons, please keep that in mind. I guess the Dev Suggestion Box would be the appropriate forum for balancing issues.
                      Fair point. I had wondered about the hold size.

                      Originally posted by dpi209 View Post
                      If you really want a "bigger" ship to make it a useful addition, what about a 30-46 gun frigate? There's quite a few ships with duplicate models in that range. You could look for an appropriate one in either the thread I mentioned earlier or somewhere in the sources from Plans, Books & Resources.
                      It's not that I want a bigger project, I just want to do something useful. The two sloops in game still have the same model, right?

                      Originally posted by Storm Hunter View Post
                      What I see will happen is a new ship using Courone model will be added, with bronze cannons and better stats. This is how they devided all ships:

                      -Retired ships ( all from 2.10+ nerfed)
                      -Rates
                      -Bronze ships ( all boats with better stats that involve long time griding or real cash spending)
                      -Refits??? Abandoned not in work yet...
                      Actually, that wouldn't be inappropriate. Since the Couronne is already a bit out of historical context, making her one of the bronze-cannon ships would make more sense. She'd be an expensive and exotic ship from Europe, so involving the European traders makes sense, and La Couronne was armed with bronze guns.

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