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  • #91
    Originally posted by Eric Bwater View Post
    You want to speak of real life war scenerios. Tell me how many blockades were able to be evaded by having one guy in a small ship attack the blockade so the rest of his buddies could get away. None.
    Well- actually, during the U.S. civil war, the South used fire ships to distract blockaders so that the runners could get through. I'm sure that there are other examples, as using expendable/light forces to delay or distract opposing forces is such good strategy in any arena of combat- land, sea, or air, that it was quite common place.

    It is indeed you people who cry that people who want balance are dumb and cant think of how to catch you are the ones who have already accepted defeat. This game is a PVP game not a grief them game. You want to venture in the red circle you thats your choice and you should be forced to fight if you attack someone.
    If this were true, then all ships would have the same sailing speed- there would be no ships capable of out pacing other ships, regardless of size. There is a speed difference because speed is meant to be used as a factor of warfare.

    There should be only 3 ways to lower contention. Do missions, kill opposing npc's, or kill the damned blockaders that are in your port. All of this other stuff is 12 year old nonsense and immaturity you're doing nothing but being a sore loser. "Well, if i cant kill him, i'll just **** him off relentlessly." Thats what you're doing and its lame.
    Those ARE the only three ways to lower contention. However, when faced with a heavier force, it is wise for the other side to use delaying/distraction tactics to occupy the heavier forces so the lighter forces can continue with their mission with impunity. If the heavier side is incapable of countering, then that is their problem. The onus to do something different is on the side with the disadvantage- once side A starts using delaying/distracting tactics, it is up to the side B to counter...else side A has no reason to change what they are doing. It works.


    People who cry foul about this tactic are the ones who want to be able to do everything themselves. They really want an 'I win' ship, instead of realising that their ship has a purpose, and to win, they need to team up with someone else in a different ship that has a different purpose.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Aderena View Post
      You sailing around in a ship that's too slow to catch your enemy is a waste of your own time.

      Are you saying it's ok to attack without the intention of fighting just to waste their time? Because the Dev's do not agree with you and neither do those of us who have any balls.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Bonham View Post
        Are you saying it's ok to attack without the intention of fighting just to waste their time? Because the Dev's do not agree with you and neither do those of us who have any balls.
        No, she's saying lazy people work double.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Caldes View Post
          Well- actually, during the U.S. civil war, the South used fire ships to distract blockaders so that the runners could get through. I'm sure that there are other examples, as using expendable/light forces to delay or distract opposing forces is such good strategy in any arena of combat- land, sea, or air, that it was quite common place.



          If this were true, then all ships would have the same sailing speed- there would be no ships capable of out pacing other ships, regardless of size. There is a speed difference because speed is meant to be used as a factor of warfare.


          Those ARE the only three ways to lower contention. However, when faced with a heavier force, it is wise for the other side to use delaying/distraction tactics to occupy the heavier forces so the lighter forces can continue with their mission with impunity. If the heavier side is incapable of countering, then that is their problem. The onus to do something different is on the side with the disadvantage- once side A starts using delaying/distracting tactics, it is up to the side B to counter...else side A has no reason to change what they are doing. It works.


          People who cry foul about this tactic are the ones who want to be able to do everything themselves. They really want an 'I win' ship, instead of realising that their ship has a purpose, and to win, they need to team up with someone else in a different ship that has a different purpose.

          Thank you for you're incredibly intelligent sounding post. Let me just hammer out a few kinks for you real quick. Fireships in the civil war was a night time tactic not only to distract but to ruin their night-sight so they could not see the smugglers. This tactic was a tactic however it was not very successful. The norths blockade of the gulf of mexico crippled the southern supply routes throughout the whole war.

          Second of all, you play on a server that is near even populations most of the time. I don't. Our views are different. Im very outnumbered, therefore we are kind of forced to do everything ourselves. Its not a choice, its the only option. I also want to know, whoever brought this whole " WE DO IT TO STOP YOU FROM FLIPPING OUT PORTS" thing, no you do it in any pvp zone that you are getting beat in because you're a sore loser and you want the winning force to feel as aggrivated as you do for getting beat. On the topic of port defense, if we have 24 people online, and somehow mange to get 6 groups of 4 doing the same thing. Against a nation that has 5 x as many players and can easily pull those guys into battle while the rest continue to grind npcs, is just not the right answer. A pirate would never sail his ship in the middle of a line of huge powerful lineships and successfully be able to fire a shot and escape alive. If it did happen, im willing to bet it was against the odds.

          Lastly, we're talking about the satisfaction of gamers here. You are allowing people to grief players who are WILLING to FIGHT. There is no CAREBEAR ISSUE here. You say the developers aggree with you. If thats so then why don't they just make it where you have 2 hours to complete a port battle and there is no town. The pirates can just get fast ship and sail around the map for 2 hours until the nationals time is up and if they dont isnk all the ships in that given time they lose the battle. I know you're gonna try to hack up what im saying and change it around but you know im right. If im attcking your port, and you want to defend it. Go out and NPC, i have the ability to assist my npcs or try to out grind you. Or, fight me. Do not HARRASS me and not allow me to play the game.

          PS. Ship speed in warfare would be considered FLANKING or distracting an enemy in THAT BATTLE. Not harrassing a player on a computer game and not allowing him to play. There are no tactics in that. Its just annoying. I'm one of the few people left in my nation on my server who havent just said "screw it im gonna go play call of duty 4 until something else comes out or until this all fixes itselves, and then im only gonna come back if the rest of the people do." I would not be posting here had i not hoped to see the game better itself. So please, if you haven't ran into the same issue other people have. Don't sit there and act like you're just so smart it cant happen to you. Chances are the players on your server for the most part are just more mature and willing to play the game as intended.
          Last edited by Eric Bwater; 03-03-2008, 09:12 PM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Seriously, its fine.

            this is what escorts are for, to tackle fast ships that the heavy chips can't.

            So instead of sailing around in your uber gun barges, take a couple of fast ships as escort.

            just because the person isn't there to sink you doesn't mean they aren't there to combat you.

            its just your idea of combat is very limited it seems.

            also FYI: I don't use this tactic, I don't need to since when I go out in group PVP I make sure there is atleast one fast ship in the group.
            when I solo PVP I'm there to sink people.
            I still however recognize its effectiveness in the right situations.

            Comment


            • #96
              I don't understand why people don't include a number of faster, smaller (ie: non-huge+) ships in their groups - or in support groups nearby - to sink these harasser ships?

              Maybe it's because I'm a pirate, and I'm accustomed to everyone wanting to sail the smaller, faster ship: We often struggle to find people to sail the "tank" ships. Everyone and their dog wants to get into their Sleek Xebecs/Hermes/MC Cerbs/Etc. Well, tap that damn resource! Collect those people, get them kitted up, and sick them on the tacklers that are plaguing you.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by P. Pete View Post
                and as above, please list the debuffs which keep you in combat at 1000 yards.

                .
                not AT "for" stop changing the word

                give is a shot there are several

                demoralize is one of the favourites
                doesn't do much if your sailing in a straight line

                if you turn to try to shoot since there aren't many ships with guns at the for only the aft you loose enough distance to get out of range

                so you chase someone for 1000+ yards NOT AT FOR.. FOR FOR FOR FOR

                again your trying to purposely be dense

                you debuff but KNOW you can't actualy shoot them because if you turn to shoot them you will loose ground and wont be able to actualy hit them because they will be beyond your guns range as a result.

                so you gain a little ground and stay there and use one debuff after another not actually affecting anything

                after 1000 yards of chasing you should be giving up not continuing at least that is what a smart person would do actualy looking for combat and not looking tohold you in an instance

                if you can't sink someone, demast them and board them then leave just wasting their time is stupid

                its one thing getting into an instance and running and pursuiing and thinking you might win for awhile.. its another thing trying to chase someone who is your identical speed and getting knowhere fast for the entire lenght of the map. That's just silly and honestly i consider it greifing and since people are being purposely silly about it and not admitting that its even done or possible when it can be done and i have had it done to me.. then i guess i will just ignore trying to explain something to someone who isn't actualy READING what is being said and report it for what it is..

                again THE WORD IS FOR NOT AT


                let me further qualify that to date i have yet to be sunk once so this is not someone "whining" about winning or being sunk. I have won 100% of the time if we must put in words like this. This is a post coming frome someone who knows what they are doing in the red ring and who unequivocally dislikes having their time waisted.

                have fun with the word subsitution..

                /waves
                Last edited by ummax; 03-04-2008, 04:22 AM.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Bonham View Post
                  Are you saying it's ok to attack without the intention of fighting just to waste their time? Because the Dev's do not agree with you and neither do those of us who have any balls.
                  yes that is what they are saying..

                  and they are ignoring any valid argument in order to justify what they are probably doing themselves. This is just a wild guess here but its probably something they are doing in order to try to "win". When this was done in tiny ships the issue was dealt with .. however suddenly its not an issue when its done in small ships capable of the same tactic.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Eric Bwater View Post
                    *post here*


                    Sounds as if your problems stem from population balance more than anything else. You even said it yourself:
                    Second of all, you play on a server that is near even populations most of the time. I don't. Our views are different. Im very outnumbered, therefore we are kind of forced to do everything ourselves. Its not a choice, its the only option.
                    That is a problem with other solutions, ie, server mergers, underdog tools (whatever those are), and proper NPC spawns around ports, etc etc. However, nerfing small ship's ability to delay enemy heavy forces does nothing but make the game a battle of level 43+ ships.

                    And, for refrence, this is an example of what happens on Rackham:

                    When Spain was flipping Charelstown a week and a half ago, the Brits came out in force to defend it. They brought heavy groups, ie, several groups of SOLs. The Brits outnumber Spain on the Rack, and their societies focused on NOs for SOLs from the get go, while Spain has a more diverse population.
                    No problem. We got some of our best privateers and non lvl 50 NOs in Lancers and Xebecs to form pairs and keep the heavies occupied and off our medium to large ship groups killing NPCs. It took quite a bit of coordination via voice chat, but Charlestown flipped that afternoon. I think we lost two Xebecs. It was as perfect an operation as one could hope for.

                    Did the Brits complain about small ship griefing? No. They learned from the experience and adapted for future events. Im an NO, I've definitely had this done to me when out in a dominance group. But no problem- its why we[Spain] have Privateers and Lancers, to deal with these tactics.

                    And you Unmax-

                    and they are ignoring any valid argument in order to justify what they are probably doing themselves.
                    are just as guilty of ignoring valid arguments for delaying tactics.

                    The issue with tiny ships is that they were never intended for combat in the game- they are novelty items.

                    If people are doing this to you for no other reason than to **** you off, I can understand your anger. But if people are doing this to you so that a FT can get through a red circle un harrased, or so a lower combat weight group can attack NPCs unhindered (and thus defend or attack a port), then you should have no reason to complain. You (your nation) can counter- port attacks and defenses are not one person, or one group, shows.


                    At anyrate, the DEVs are already addressing this to some extent, with group prompt to join battles ( a good idea), but this tactic will still remain. It will just take more ships to accomplish (which is fine), and even splitting off one or two heavy ships from a group can swing a later battle.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ummax View Post
                      not AT "for" stop changing the word
                      So what range do they work at?

                      oh right ...500 yards.

                      what range are 8lb guns with heavy round [for cripple] ...500yards....

                      Do 11lb and larger guns have a range with bar shot [cut shroud/disable rigging] of more then 500y?

                      yes they do ..

                      So, as was my point earlier, if they are keeping in in combat with debuffs then they are in range for disabling shot.

                      whats the problem?


                      As I said earlier, I'd had people do it to me before.
                      it was for a specific purpose.
                      it was successful for a bit.

                      the aim was to harass my group so that they couldn't not effectively attack far more valuable targets.

                      it worked until we sunk that person.

                      in these cases there is no "can't" ...the is "wont".

                      its not that it "can't" be beaten, its that you "wont" choose to employ a tactic to beat it.

                      it'd be like me complaining that 6 privateers in hercules can't sink 6 NOs in 1st rates in a line fight.

                      the answer would be "duh, you used the wrong tactic, the group you had wasn't setup to line fight ships that are designed to line fight"

                      just like its stupid when someone complains that ubership_01 got sunk by a pair of cutters, since ubership_01 isn't designed to combat multiple small agile craft on its own.



                      please oh wise one, explain to us all why line ships IRL always traveled with escorts?
                      or why big fat slow frigates also traveled often with smaller ships available?

                      Why was it that cutters/sloops/xebecs became small naval ships?

                      sloop of war anyone?

                      why did they exist?

                      to only attack ships they could sink?


                      I think not.

                      Comment


                      • Small ships are supposed to be able to harass, tackle and flee from targets that are too big for them to kill. Big ships are supposed to be more vulnerable if they have no support from quicker ships. Likewise, those quick ships are intended to protect bigger ships as part of a convoy. Speed is a tactical advantage that you can leverage. Groups with FTs and Navies have the advantage of being able to support their tacklerís speed, which should allow you to catch a lone tackler. Pirates will get more support like that in future builds, too.


                        What we donít want is small ships keeping players engaged for extended periods of time (like 45 minutes from several attacks) and preventing them from playing the game. Since that overlaps with legitimate tactics, itís difficult to prevent it mechanically without impacting the importance of speedy ships in group PvP. That also means groups need to be prepared to defend against quick ships, because we only want to intervene in the most extreme cases. Generally, we want it to be dangerous for the tackler to get close enough to keep players in combat if theyíre facing a vastly superior force. Itís possible weíll make adjustments in that area, but we donít want to compromise other areas of the game in the process. There are a large number of skill changes, rule changes and just general overhaul that might impact this in 1.2. Weíll see if itís a big issue at that time.


                        This is why we have exit points in Ad-Hocs and one reason we have various forms of protection between encounters.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Eric Bwater View Post
                          Will anything be done about pirates in ultra fast uncatchable ships that keep attacking your group and running?
                          My FT uses a Bermuda Trader Sloop as a blockade runner, ferrying important goods to and from ports under contention, so I'm completely against nerfing ship speed. And stop it with the 'go stealth' replies, because stealth is useless once they spot you. I want speed, speed and more speed!
                          Last edited by Zapor; 03-05-2008, 03:26 PM.

                          Comment


                          • This is more of a tactic than a bug. The whole point of fast ships is to be able to hit and run. Pirates in real life at this time period used to favour fast small ships for this very reason. It's simply realistic to expect this kind of outcome. This is why you need to balance between big gun ships and small fast chasers and harassers when grouping for pvp.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leo LaFuze View Post
                              Alright. There's been a misunderstanding.

                              We have no problem with pirates being speedy. That's dandy. They should be.

                              Our problem is when we are forced to stay in an instance. For 45 minutes straight. Because this one little speedy bastard pirate is hitting us every 2 minutes then running out of range.

                              Can there not be a way to prevent that particular thing from happening without having to nerf the pirates speed?

                              How about if 4 out of 6 of your group is out of combat, everyone can exit? One guy cant keep everyone in combat.
                              Funny my group had the same thing happen from the french.

                              Comment


                              • Just form a circle like the cowboys did, that would cover all angles and the little bugger wont get close enough :P

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